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Talk:Vanguard
On the Ethics of Vanguard vs Longbow The forumites Samual Tow and Human Being recently waged a spirited (if good-natured) debate on the motives and methods of the Vanguard and Longbow in their fight against the Rikti. I believe the exchange to be worth preserving - though I'm not sure where it might go. Samual Tow: :The only mission that is tasteless for a hero is breaking into an honest-to-God Longbow base to steal their intelligence and help Vanguard fight off moves to shut them down. There's really no justifiable reason there, though it turns out there WAS one after the fact. Other than that, you're fighting Rogue Vanguard who are about to make a gigantic mess and Longbow who stand in your way of stopping the Rogue Vanguard from making a big mess. Heroes or no heroes, if it's them or the rest of the multiverse, then I have no qualms about hurting their egos a bit. Human Being: :Are you kidding me? :D *Potential Spoilers Below* :An internationally sanctioned (whether or not the UN is a governing body or a talk shop, the individual nations that provided support and basing have given their blessing to Vanguard) bdefense force/b with global jurisdiction versus a pretentious and self-righteous private militia of zealots? :Vanguard recruits grizzled volunteers for service in a war and equips them in heavily functional and highly expensive custom equipment. :Longbow recruits wide-eyed ideologues who "want to be heroes", dresses them up in light body armor that is intended more to invoke an image of "super-hero-ness" to the wearer than for ultimate protection (even to the point of giving them capes!), and provides them with equipment purchased from the NATO military alliance. :When a portion of Vanguard became corrupt, the organization dealt with it in house, the officer responsible for oversight freely and professionally owned up to it, and steps were taken to prevent it from happening again. :Longbow (despite vainglorious denials of moral purity) is riddled with individuals with unstable personalities, people with pathologic criminal tendencies, and pernicious corruption. The oversight from superior officers is so incompetent that dangerous weapons like the Nullifier Gun have made their way onto the black market. Any longtime professional hero knows how potentially lethal a failure this is. They also associate with violent fanatics and have tried to hide financial ties to groups of questionable legal standing. :Longbow pairs "low grade" meta-humans with unpowered operatives for a "super hero/side kick" effect and (if Captain Dietrich is any indication) appears to promote based on dogmatic fervency. :Vanguard organizes squads into functional combat units with focus on their legitimate enemy and provides greater access to equipment and resources based solely on success in the field against that foe. A Merit-ocratic system indeed! :Vanguard has kept its eye on the ball when everyone else was doing their best to deny the continuing existence of a Rikti threat. They studied the opposition, developed tactics and equipment, parlayed with disaffected members of the enemy, and succeeded where all others had failed in securing at least a partial peace with them. :Longbow took it upon themselves to spy on Vanguard, violently disrupted their operations, and seized on an incipient scandal to try and spin their leader's political popularity into an annexation of Vanguard to Longbow in time of open war for what appears to have entirely been professional jealousy! :Amongst other prestigious characters Vanguard is led by The Lady Grey who is the model of dignity and maturity (indeed who knows every member of Vanguard by name) and had to be asked to take up her office. :Longbow is led by a teenaged "moistened bint with a sword" of questionable parentage who is the Paris Hilton of the superhero community and may actually have started Longbow to url=http://www.cityofvillains.com/gameinfo/gw_journal8.htmlmake her mother angry/url! :If it's a question of Longbow versus Vanguard, I know who I'' think the Good Guys with an "argent reputation" in that face off are. :(Your serve Mister Tow :grin:.) '''Samual Tow' :Might I remind you of Levantera's approach to the whole Rikti war? "And save all civilians. It'll make us look good. Oh, and be the right thing, I suppose." Sha, right. Vanguard is little more than a mercenary organisation with unlimited financing and goals that may not be entirely in the city's favour. Clearly from the actions I've seen them take - from breaking into an honest-to-God Longbow base staffed with volunteers, Paragon citizens, no less, tell bold-faced lies to a Rikti diplomat who was kidnapped by their very own people and nearly killed, suppress the information for a leak, in my eyes to preserve the integrity of their own censored, and so on and so forth - they strike me as no better than common mercenaries. Well, except they have better funding. :Longbow may have a few rotten apples in their rank, but most of those are children of the Rogue Isles, and their demeanour is quite like that of Levantera. And their motivations close to those of Gaussian - "They're probably right, but I don't look good in red and white. So let's screw 'em and do this our way, even though that risks collapsing the multiverse in on us." And speaking of Captain Deitrich, strict and dogmatic as she may be, what counts is that her heart is in the same place. She blames Vanguard for a lot of the same things I do, and she questions their motives as she has reasons to. But when the chips are down and the conspiracy is exposed, she owns up to her mistake and takes the whole thing up to Miss Liberty and sees the mess cleared up. And when she sees information on Nemesis'es secret, she is the first to offer assistance. :And let's not even look at the actual good people of longbow. People like Lt. Sefu Tendaji, who follows orders to the end but still stays on the side of what is right the whole time. Or the many Ballisti that populate the Rogue Isles who's only desire is to be heroes and help people. What Longbow promote by is solely based on speculation at this point. From what I've seen, they promote based devotion to the hero cause. True, Demitrovich and her friend are not the most heroic of the bunch, but we shouldn't forget how Recluse and the Statesman started out as. That's not the norm here. :On the flip side, how Vanguard promote is appaling. Promotions and rewards based on combat experience and battle achievement do not take into account their agents' methodology. Murder, theft, cruelty and so forth are just as accepted as a means for earning merits as heroism, saving people and helping others. For Vanguard, the cause justifies the means, and it's only a small step on a slippery slope to go from rewarding villains for their cruelty because they further your agenda and using a modified nuke to try and implode a dimensional gateway because it would further your agenda. The Rogue Vanguard are not just an anomaly, they're simply vanguard operatives who act out Vanguard's philosophy without regard. :I am very, very unhappy about being associated Vanguard just for stepping into the War Zone. If Hero Corp could take so much flak for creating "mercenary heroes," then so should Vanguard. The only reason they're not is because they are needed for the moment. But neither their methods nor their motives are things I like. Human Being :Ahhh, Mr Tow. I have missed our associations . ::Might I remind you of Levantera's approach to the whole Rikti war? "And save all civilians. It'll make us look good. Oh, and be the right thing, I suppose." Sha, right. :Might I remind you of her sister and Shield co-leader Borea's approach to the whole Rikti War? "Borea tends to believe in a protective strategy, concentrating on defending the city and it's(sic) citizens over aggressive pre-emptive attacks. After all, if your enemy has destroyed what you were protecting, then any victory is meaningless." ::Vanguard is little more than a mercenary organisation with unlimited financing and goals that may not be entirely in the city's favour. :A "mercenary" is someone who soldiers for an employer regardless of the specific battle. Vanguard is an organization to oppose a defined foe that has made war upon Earth. You join Vanguard to fight the Rikti. This is not glorious or high profile or sexy. It is arguably the most deadly and determined enemy one can face. They are fascist group-thought genetic self-mutilators who have attempted planetary genocide upon us, not once but twice. Standing to the fore between this threat and friends, family, and home (placing oneself literally "in the vanguard") is a noble action by any measure. Period. It is far from "mercenary". :Longbow on the other hand, recruits those who simply wish to be seen as a hero...regardless of how this comes to be. Far from noble this is a frightening commentary on the mentality and emotional state of Longbow rank and file. It is also not just figurative but literally true that Longbow is a Mercenary organization. :Vanguard also has far from "unlimited financing". They indeed have developed sophisticated equipment, going so far as to protect their soldiers with armor made of Impervium! Quite the extravagance...until one recalls that Impervium is known to have an extraordinarily strong protective effect against psychic attacks which the Rikti make heavy use of. If one looks at all past the silver and purple of the uniforms, it is painfully apparent that everything Vanguard uses is starkly utilitarian. They have stretched every penny of their budget without any frills. Want proof? Look at their helicopters. Vanguard armor is more advanced and protective than anything on earth save that of their foes - because it needs to be. Their helicopters are unsophisticated, wide-bellied 1970s vintage aircraft because that is all they need to be. In the same way Vanguard tanks were evidently purchased from the American Army and the gun turrets protecting the main base (which is on the front line of the battle against the enemy) are off-the-shelf Crey models. :No, you will not find Vanguard with blank-check, black-budget, $500 hammer spendthrift ways that result in: Sprawling military bases in the middle of nowhere with no legal sanction and nothing to defend. Underground laboratories littered with flashing light rings and thrumming energy columns. Secret submarine fleets. Numberless legions of personnel. Equipment that seems more suited to personal flair than combat utility. Or ultra expensive vehicles that are both too small for frontline military use and too large for police work yet just right for joy riding. ::Clearly from the actions I've seen them take - from breaking into an honest-to-God Longbow base staffed with volunteers, Paragon citizens, no less, tell bold-faced lies to a Rikti diplomat who was kidnapped by their very own people and nearly killed, suppress the information for a leak, in my eyes to preserve the integrity of their own censored, and so on and so forth -'' :cough You mean: "breaking into a covert facility staffed with foreign nationals who were conducting an illegal wire-tapping operation against any and all members of Paragon society they deemed in their oversight-free wisdom were "a threat", adroitly and successfully did exactly what a diplomat is supposed to do resulting in signing of a peace treaty and acquisition of a literally invaluable ally in the war, and then had responsibility for the renegades actions accepted by the individual with command over them and who took steps to clean house regardless of political/professional fallout."? :Treating everyone who isn't "your group" as the enemy is dangerous behavior, not that of a Hero; I don't care whether you style yourself "honest-to-God Longbow" or "the goddamned Batman". ::''Longbow may have a few rotten apples in their rank, but most of those are children of the Rogue Isles, and their demeanour is quite like that of Levantera. And their motivations close to those of Gaussian - "They're probably right, but I don't look good in red and white. So let's screw 'em and do this our way, even though that risks collapsing the multiverse in on us." And speaking of Captain Deitrich, strict and dogmatic as she may be, what counts is that her heart is in the same place. :Kristof Jaeger's origin is unknown, but Darla Mavis fought with Longbow "As the heroine Maverick" - strongly suggesting she was a Paragonite and not from the Rogue Isles, and Demitrovich and Yushenko are Russian nationals. Still, your "children of the Rogue Isles" point is well taken since it's furthers my own argument. It matters less what one does in public than how one behaves when it is believed no one else is looking. Without cameras to pose for or police to front to, Longbow personnel's true colors come to the fore very easily. :Vanguard on the other hand has been out of view for years, with self-admitted lack of supervision. Yet when they step into the light it is as a highly disciplined and professional force directly placing itself in the path of danger. You yourself (I can't believe you handed me this one .) have commented on the honesty of Vanguard logistics personnel. In an area that is historically corrupt in military formations, Vanguard Quartermasters show honesty and fairness above and beyond that of any others in Paragon. And it is not a single instance of an "honest Ghost Falcon". There is more than one Vanguard Quartermaster and they all behave the same. In other words, rather than individual probity, it is organizational policy that you are seeing. :And you are leaning very heavily on a fascetious statement from the single dryest contact I have ever encountered in Paragon. If he were honestly as small-souled in choosing the fate of the world based fashion-wear as you seek to portray, he would not have been so forthright in accepting his own culpability in the Sword affair. ::She blames Vanguard for a lot of the same things I do, and she questions their motives as she has reasons to. But when the chips are down and the conspiracy is exposed, she owns up to her mistake and takes the whole thing up to Miss Liberty and sees the mess cleared up. And when she sees information on Nemesis'es secret, she is the first to offer assistance. :You mean once she realizes the power-play isn't going to succeed she runs back to Ms Liberty and tells her to back down because the operation is blown? And when finally being informed in the hospital what is going on after having shot first and listening once she's out of ammo she jumped at an opportunity to get her name in the papers? :Oh truly, this is someone I want carrying an automatic weapon with delusions of authority . :Despite having a "Head of anti-Rikti operations" (a task at which Longbow has singularly failed in the past and for which any officer who actually tries to act upon is left crying in the wilderness), Longbow has chosen to focus its energies upon the organization offering successful resistance to the enemy rather than the enemy itself in this time of war. Indeed, other than the Vanguard DPO recruiters, the only place I see Vanguard is engaged with the enemy, preparing to engage, or recuperating from same. Longbow is even present with their "Chasers" on the War Zone battlefield, yet leave the combat to Vanguard soldiers. :During the first incursions last week, Positron and Back Alley Brawler took to the air and fought beside the citizens of Paragon. The "villains" Ghost Widow and Wretch assaulted the Rikti Mothership in the inner-metropolitan War Zone. The metamorphic demigod "JLove" even appeared and did battle with his awesome might. :Did anyone see Ms Liberty anywhere in the fight? Anyone at all? :The only incident in which I personally have seen Longbow take action in this war is when I and several other individuals were desperately trying to disassemble a ticking Rikti munition in the middle of a Paragon street: a member of a local gang was standing nearby when a Longbow member ran up within 5 feet of us, pulled out a pistol, gunned this "miscreant" down in the street, then turned on his heel and jogged back the way he came without even a glance at the bomb, I and my comrades-in-haste, or any offer of assistance. This actually happened to me! ::And let's not even look at the actual good people of longbow. People like Lt. Sefu Tendaji, who follows orders to the end but still stays on the side of what is right the whole time. :You mean the man who continually made appologies for his superior while she followed a personal vendetta? ::Or the many Ballisti that populate the Rogue Isles who's only desire is to be heroes and help people. :A desire for self-aggrandizement does not excuse flouting the law, regardless of how "good" your intentions are. ::What Longbow promote by is solely based on speculation at this point. From what I've seen, they promote based devotion to the hero cause. :Exactly. Or said a different way, they promote based on political reliability rather than emotional fitness or field competence. ::On the flip side, how Vanguard promote is appaling. Promotions and rewards based on combat experience and battle achievement do not take into account their agents' methodology. Murder, theft, cruelty and so forth are just as accepted as a means for earning merits as heroism, saving people and helping others. :I'm sorry, I missed the acts of murder and sadism. Have you reported these events to Lady Grey? If by theft you mean acquisition of enemy intelligence and materiale through stealthy means, I did catch that and applaud it. I also did note that indeed it doesn't matter how pretty or "heroic" one looks when trying to keep a Rikti Headman from shooting you in the face; that promotion comes from winning the war rather than the amount of effort one spends on maintaining a public image. ::For Vanguard, the cause justifies the means, and it's only a small step on a slippery slope to go from rewarding villains for their cruelty because they further your agenda and using a modified nuke to try and implode a dimensional gateway because it would further your agenda. The Rogue Vanguard are not just an anomaly, they're simply vanguard operatives who act out Vanguard's philosophy without regard. :On the contrary, rather than an indictment of Vanguard as a whole, the Sword affair stands as a defense of the organization at every turn. Instead of being the way most Vanguard personnel felt, the rogue Sword members had to insulate themselves away from their comrades to the point where Longbow thought they were a new Division. Rather than being an organization free to rampage and despoil without restraint, the renegades found it necessary to attempt to assassinate the leadership for freedom of action. Everything they did showed they were at variance with the heart and soul of Vanguard. Furthermore, it is stated policy that the amnesty accorded to individuals with a standing criminal record or warrants is in force only so long as those individuals are acting for Vanguard and pursue no criminal activity or behave in disruptive ways. In other words, instead of being accepted without regard to their history, they are expected to uphold the standards and honor of The Vanguard. To date, all of them have and despite your maligning those with checkered pasts in the Vanguard there have been no incidents of cross-factional brawling within the ranks (though there have been reports of verbal sparring and at least one incident of "slapping".) :At the other hand, no excess seems enough to earn a reprimand in Longbow. Not so long as one can cloak it in an air of righteousness. That they will hire individuals with mafia ties or eco-terrorists says far more eloquently that Longbow is an "our righteousness means anything we do is right" organization who sees their ends justifying any means. :But then, just as Vanguard is a reflection of Lady Grey (who we have seen place herself in very real personal danger twice: once to further peace talks with the Rikti Traditionalists and once to root out a cancer within her own organization), what can one expect from an organization which is led by Ms Liberty? :The leader of Longbow continuously stands on a pedestal in Atlas Park, there to receive the adulation and celebrity worship of naive and bright-eyed new-arriving heroes. Other high-status super-humans in Paragon can be seen loitering in various neighborhoods, but none seek the lime-light in this way. Indeed, she won't even leave her spotlight to make a statement to the press. :Remind me again what this teenaged child, unlike her mother and WWII veteran grandmother, has accomplished by herself? Oh yes! Caused a shipwreck and oil spill while mauling a "villain" over a foreign country! An economic and ecological disaster for a small community that lingers to this very day and had such impact it renamed an entire neighborhood. When Leonard Calhoun acted overzealously in his own desire for public adulation, he was convicted and branded forever an "Outcast". When Tom Banner (September 14, 2005) lost control of his prodigious abilities and caused the devastation of Siren's Call, he was posthumously damned. But then, I supposed there are certain double-standards to be maintained for someone who's grandfather is a century-old immortal who tells stories about being hit in the chest with a nuclear weapon. The irony that she is the granddaughter of someone who styled herself "Justice" is appalling. The irony that such an irresponsible and reckless individual dubs herself "Liberty" seems apropos. One supposes that the young heroine wanted to pay for cleanup and restitution of her actions, but couldn't find her purse under the pile of requisitions for new Longbow Uniform capes. (Or is someone going to argue that since Port Oakes is a "bad place", that anything that happens or is done to its residents is deserved, Just, and one can still be a "good guy" after harming them?) ::I am very, very unhappy about being associated Vanguard just for stepping into the War Zone. If Hero Corp could take so much flak for creating "mercenary heroes," then so should Vanguard. The only reason they're not is because they are needed for the moment. But neither their methods nor their motives are things I like. :One does not become "drafted" simply for entering the War Zone. One must be of certain caliber and experience even to be considered and then one must accept the offer of enlistment (You literally click the words "Join Vanguard".) And time of war is exactly when they should be recruiting. :I am proud to be a member of The Vanguard. From the high-morale frontline "grunts" with their traditional sardonic wit ("This place is awful. But other than that it's okay."), to the professionalism of the support personnel, to comradeship and esprit de corp (a Hero Corp field analyst and an Arachnos Fortunata standing amiably within ten feet of each other?), to morale boosting public support (civilian Icon employees stationed in the home-facility to assist new recruits with their Uniforms), to the strength of the leadership, to the importance of the mandate. :Even if only as a tiny badge amongst many because of inability to comfortably fit Vanguard Armor, I am proud to wear the Silver and Purple. Samual Tow: :I'm sorry, but I couldn't go to the end of this, I'm afraid. You have facts, but the essence of what you're saying here is blatant propaganda. Exaggeration and caricature just do not build a solid point. We can talk back and forth about he said she said. The fact remains that I have seen how both organisations operate. Longbow are out in the streets, protecting the innocents, fighting the villains in our very own back yards and keeping the people of at least one small part of the Rogue Isles safe in some small measure. :At the same time, the Vanguard are spending millions of dollars to spy on each other, assassinate each other, to say nothing of assassinate diplomats and strut their stuff in some self-righteous attempt to make themselves look good. And they are the only ones who can stop the Rikti why, exactly? It's not Vanguard agents that are saving the Rikti diplomats. It's not Vanguard agents that are keeping the Rikti in check. It's heroes and villains who have been pronounced as Vanguard agents in title only. :All Vanguard is doing is manning a base of operations, plus a few bunkers. And those are hard fortifications the US Army set up for themselves long before Vanguard ever became involved in this. As far as I've seen, Longbow, with whatever small presence they have in the War Zone, have been a greater help to my fight against the Rikti than most of anything Vanguard has done for me, with the possible exception of giving me a base of operations. But I hazard to say, were this a Longbow base, staffed with Wardens and Ballistae, it would be just as safe, if not safer. :And if we're talking about pinching pennies, Vanguard are spending billions on incredibly expensive weapons and armour, and for what? So they can sit and guard their bases? And that's money that comes straight out of the UN's pocket. Hardly money earned. Longbow, and in fact even Wyvern, for that matter, are privately funded, meaning the money they spend is money they people who run them are taking out of their pockets. :Frankly, to me, Vanguard are little more than mercenaries. Oh, sure, the organisation itself may be on the level. But if you go off the banners and press releases, you won't know what's really going on. I've been there, and I've seen how they work. They give a badge out to anyone who asks for it and pronounce them a Vanguard agent. Murderers, convicts, madmen... All they have to do is ask and demonstrate a little bit of power. After that it's "don't ask, don't tell." :Forgive me if I am unimpressed by an organisation that takes everyone aboard regardless of their alignment or loyalty. The enemy of my enemy is still just as much my enemy when he's just as soon turn around and screw me over. And it's no secret what these "agents of Vanguard" are doing with their organisation's authority when they think no-one is looking. They're villains on more than just in name. Even in a war of genocide, there are some compromises that cannot and should not be taken. :Ultimately, even if we stop the war and beat back the Rikti, what kind of world are we fighting for? A world when the cause justifies the means? A world where a villain is given not just state protection and amnesty (over and over again), but is actually authorised to exercise the state's authority? It may look improbably, but it's only a small step between funding these people in times of war and funding them after the war to help rebuild. And then funding them after that to help police. And then funding them after that for Lord knows what other reason. :If I had a choice in the matter, I'd sooner go down fighting the Rikti than sell my soul to Lord Recluse, because that would be a Pyrrhic victory. Longbow may not be the most effective of the bunch, but I know where their loyalties lie and I know where their hearts lie. And if I had to choose who to fight beside, I'd rather choose the people who I can trust to risk their lives for me than the people to whom everyone is just a means to an end. Who are these Vanguard actually fighting for, when they are betraying the very people they claim to protect. The only one of the bunch who has had even a shred of concern for the people has been the Dark Watcher. Every other commanding officer in Vanguard is so concerned with Rikti, Rikti, Rikti that they have forgotten who they are fighting FOR, as opposed to who they are fighting AGAINST. I've long since learned that just because people are fighting the same thing I am, that doesn't mean they're on my side. :In the end, I stand by my position and just flatly refuse to consider the kind of propaganda you're conducting. I can read all the clever rethoric the world has to offer, all the twisting of facts, grasping at straws, demonization, character assassination of important personae and so forth. But it doesn't do a thing to change what I have seen, what I have done and what I have learned. That's the extent of it. And it doesn't matter how much bad or good press anyone has taken. And it doesn't matter how much Longbow is presented as the "there could be worse" victim. The point remains that Vanguard are far too lost in their own agenda to fight these aliens that they've forgotten why they're fighting them in the first place. You do not fight for the lives of the people by sacrificing and disregarding the lives of the people while you're doing it. :I have chosen to stand with Vanguard simply because there has been no other way for me to bring the battle to the aliens. Had I a choice to do so without associating with Vanguard, I would have. I have seen, worked with and know Longbow to be both reliable and honourable, so if I could have chosen anyone to fight with against the aliens, I would have chosen them. I would not have chosen Vanguard simply because I do not approve of their methods, their priorities or the people they've had me associate with. There is an easy way to do something and there is a right way to do something. To me, Vanguard have chosen the easy way. I prefer to do things the right way. :(none of that stuff should be taken too seriously) A Few Sword Powers I haven't sorted them all out yet, but I've got some screenshots of info from my last fight against the Vanguard Swords. Obviously, this one came from the Lieutenants, since they're the only ones with claws. : From the mobs with rifles (I think all of them came from rifles, anyway): : : : : : From the Bosses : : : --Eabrace 00:56, 8 August 2007 : Just had a chat with my first group of these. Talk about a nasty enemy grop: it's like fighting Vahzilok and Malta at the same time. I saw all those powers and a few more. I'm making the Enemies section right now... as soon as I recover from the shock. :--Yakovlev 05:40, 10 August 2007 (EDT) Shield and Sword Wouldn't ya know it? That latest patch makes the universal distinction between Vanguard Shield and Vanguard Sword. Guess the old article wasn't so wrong after all. --GuyPerfect 00:56, 2 July 2007 (EDT) Subfactions? Given that the Vanguard is so painfully verbose in defining the different sections, should we divide it up in to subfactions with their own page (a la Arachnos)? I think it would make sense, as there are a lot of details that can be presented about each of them, that would otherwise be lost in one big page. Kalon 21:19, 25 July 2007 (EDT) Disruption Device I have an image of the Disruption Device (Object) from the end of Gaussian's arc. Should I upload it? --Eabrace 02:19, 1 August 2007 (EDT) :I vote, yes. - Snorii 13:25, 1 August 2007 (EDT) :: I added it, but since it's a factionless object, I went with the format used on the Sonic Bomb page. You can see it here: Disruption Device --Eabrace 16:30, 2 August 2007 (EDT) Sword/Shield mob types I saw. - Skarmory The PG 13:05, 1 August 2007 (EDT) Shield: M: Soldier L: Sergeant, Adept B: Colonel, Wizard Sword: M: Ranger L: Eliminator B: Sorcerer :In Serpent Drummer's first mission, I grabbed some screenshots of the following: :*Conference Security (minion) - I'm sure it's a named instance of one of the minions :*Conference Security (lieutenant) - I'm sure it's a named instance of one of the lieutenants :*Vanguard Drill Instructor (boss) - this one may actually be the correct name, but still not sure :If I can sort out what the real names of each of those are, I'll upload the screenies with the correct names. :--Eabrace 16:30, 2 August 2007 (EDT) Shield and Sword Redux I'm through and making as many Wanted pages as possible, and the top of list is Vanguard Shield. They only appear as allies in the RWZ, and in a number of instanced missions. The standard seems to be that factions appearing as allies do not get their own faction pages, and Vanguard has them described. Do we want to a) make a new page for Vanguard Shield and copy the info over from this page or b) redirect Vanguard Shield here? Or do we want to do something else? SpaceNut 22:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)